Immortal Technique Interview
Interview by Prop Anon – Immortal Technique is an artist in the lineage of Zach De LaRocha and Chuck D, and he needs to be listened to. His story is a testament to the power of the pen. Born in Peru and raised in Harlem as a child, he found himself in trouble with the law as a teenager and young man. After serving time in prison for a couple years and becoming free, in more ways than one, Immortal Technique worked his way up through New York City underground Hip-Hop in the early 2000’s battle-rap scene. During this period, Tech got a name for himself for delivering vitriolic rhyme schemes deconstructing a system that has repeatedly lied to many in order to benefit a few. He also ran with the well-known underground NYC Hip-Hop crew, Stronghold, and frequented thenow longest running open mic in the city, End of the Weak.
His song “Dance with the Devil” is a piece that I think will stand the test of time, much like a Johnny Cash tune. The presentation laid forth by the narrator is so gritty that it almost fits the mold of Horror-core rap, the type that Ill Bill and Necro have taken to the next level over the years. Where this song veers away from the Horror-core mold is where Tech is rhyming about things that sound like they could have happened somewhere last night. A number of my friends say that they cannot listen to that song too much, because it’s so disturbing. But again, this is not for the sole reason of shock value, a criticism that is often leveled against Horror-core rap. Rather, it’s disturbing because of what it reveals.
Immortal Technique has established a worldwide presence and a strong global following, doing so from an independent stance, from the very beginning. I’ve had conversations with other MCs (Why-G being one) speculating on the possibility of Tech going platinum without the backing of a major record label. This feat would be unheard of, a true inspiration.
Tech’s rhyme style has been one of a vicious battle rapper, coming out of a particular battle-heavy era in NYC underground Hip-Hop, seeking to eviscerate his adversary. And on his Revolutionary volumes 1 and 2, this adversary appears to be United States Government. Tech has had his detractors, those who feel that his style has been weighed down a bit by the battle rap rep, and that his flow offers nothing new. But my answer to that is that the power of what he is actually saying far outweighs his style of presentation. Also like all great artists, his style has progressed and become more nuanced through time.
Over the years Tech has matured as a writer, speaker, thinker, and perhaps most importantly an activist. He appears to have settled into his stride and has gone deeper in his analysis. His recent release “The 3rd World Mixtape” provides some different stylistic offerings from Tech. And one only needs to go on YouTube and watch his interviews to discover his further evolution. Very recently, he has opened an orphanage in Afghanistan. This is something no one in Hip-Hop has ever done; this is unparalleled.
I caught up with Tech while he was between tours and finishing his upcoming project, “The Middle Passage.”
Prop: Recently, I saw footage of you speaking at the South Central Food Co-op back in 2006. I was really impressed with your analysis of the possibility of revolution in today’s world, in so much as what is achievable and tangible. Can you provide us a breakdown of, first, what you identify as Revolution, and second, what aspects of it are truly possible in the world’s current state?
Tech: I can’t recap that talk verbatim, but the way I view it today is, I always believed that revolution is the highest level of change. Not the superficial change of replacing people who are in positions that were created to prevent others from questioning their government in a more accountable manner. But more to the point, I think that revolution is a sacrifice and responsibility.
People who are usually faced with the prospect of actually engaging in a revolution are usually people who have had to suffer enough injustice, and are prone to more cynicism than others. And there is a certain point when a government just accepts the fact that there is going to be a revolution, and they then look towards cutting their losses as much as they possibly can. Like for instance, striking an economic deal with the new government, so that the illusion of freedom is given but that economic subservience to the same manufacturer and/or the same corporation is maintained. And that’s something that Latin America has an incredible amount of history in.
I also think that revolutions can only occur when the people stop being pacified, or when they stop allowing themselves to be pacified, Without pacification people start to see exactly what their money is being spent on. I’m not saying this because I don’t like sports, or I don’t like shows, or music, you know what I mean. I think that without these things the country would tear itself to pieces. Imagine how many angry people that go and vent and pay all this money to see a gladiator sport. But what would you do if you didn’t have that on Sunday or Monday? Maybe you’d actually pay attention to what is in the Patriot Act, or what is in the Stimulus package, or what your Congressman is doing. You would have an active role in government.
I don’t expect people to be as passionate about politics as I am, but I think that if they had half the passion and half the understanding of the average person who is interested in this stuff, then their life would be immeasurably different in terms of how much more proactive a role they would play in their own destiny.
And I think that’s exactly what revolution is, playing a hand in your own destiny. Saying ‘You know what, I’m really not going to allow the rest of you to dictate to me what I’m going to do, and I am going to manufacture this lifestyle for myself one way or another.’
No doubt. So, you are originally from Peru and have family down there. Are you familiar with some of the shamanic traditions in your home country?
I have come across people who participate in those types of actions, and who live their lifestyle according to these philosophies. I think that the world is neither white nor black when it comes to stuff like that.There is always a possibility of using that in conjunction with other treatments. But I think that it’s dangerous to believe in just one. People may think, ‘Oh that’s just a bunch of weirdos singing.’ But at the same time, they take so much care to think of their physical health and they take so much care of their mental health, because they know if they don’t feed their mind, their mind is going to devour itself. Yet they don’t consider what the equivalent of that would be in terms of taking care of their spiritual health, which I think is what we are talking about now. Tapping into the human spirit. I’m not going to say that I’m a spiritual person, because that seems kind of clichéd. What does that mean? You believe in ghosts? You talk to your ancestors? To me it can mean a variety of things.
I believe in God, but I’ve never as an adult adhered to one particular religion over another. I’ve accepted that all of them equally have a certain sense of truth to them, and all of them equally have a series of unfortunate hypocrisies that are a result of mankind. I think that if the religions that now control the world had been in the hands of pious people, of righteous individuals, then they would have never expanded beyond the small radius that they had at their conception. But I figure specifically that because the religion had fallen into the hands of lesser men, that it is as extensive as it is now. In that, there is no further proof than what people call colonization – which I think is too nice a word, that people use to describe 500 years of rape and murder and cultural genocide, plain genocide,and political de-evolution. I don’t know how we can sum it up in a word that makes it sound like we are going to Williamsburg, Pennsylvania.
In truth that we have lost about our society, that at times we may think we are tapping into something new, we may be tapping into something that’s very old, that we once had long ago, but was destroyed our stolen from us. If not by recent conquerors, then the conquerors before them.We were not an innocent people when we were conquered. We did horrible things to one another. It’s not like war was unknown to us. So things like you are speaking of are an incredible window to the past for understanding our people, and the evolution of all humans.
You strike me as an avid reader. I am curious if you havecome across the book Food of the Gods by Terrence McKenna?
I’ve heard of it, but I’ve never read it.
I think you would dig the book. So let’s get into the 9-11 Truth movement, a righteous cause in the quest to get some kind of clarity on what happened on September 11th, 2001. What are your views on this?
I’ll be really honest with you. I was never a member, interms of paying dues or going to meetings. I’ve told everyone that was involved from the very beginning that I didn’t adhere to one particular theory or another, because there is such a wide array of ideas about what actually happened. I’ve been hit up by a plethora of people, some of them actually have some expertise in this, and some of them do not. I’m not talking about just 9-11 Truth, I mean in general. I’ve been hit up be professors. I’ve been contacted by engineers, architects, people who were first responders, people who had family who were first responders, people whose family members had died in the attack on the World Trade Center. These were all people who didn’t believe in the government’s version, and who had their questions about it. To me, I think there is a difference between that and the people who have outlandish claims.
At some point you have to draw the line, and say, ‘You know what? Prove it.’ You don’t get to just say silly shit like that and put it out there. So I thought to myself, unless I’m going to sit down and spend the next five or six years of my life being an investigative reporter, I’m going to speak from a position of ignorance and say I don’t know exactly what happened that day. The government has a version of what happened, but they wouldn’t tell us the truth about the air being safe to breathe afterwards.
When a cop gets busted and it turns out he lied and planted evidence, all of the arrests that he’s made come into question. Well, is not the same logic applicable to a government that has consistently lied to people, and is just caught now in lying to people? You lied about a war, you lied about so many other things, and I know that’s such a catch-phrase. The minute that a conservative person hears that they are immediately turned off, saying, ‘Oh, here we go again.’ I’m not a liberal you moron, you know. I’m conservative about a lot of things, but I’m not a person that is just going to blindly agree with one political spectrum. Or I should say, one structured political spectrum, because I think America has dimensions of politics that go beyond Left and Right, and I think for anyone that doesn’t understand that, you’ve really been trained very well. You have no consciousness on your level.
I would say that throughout life, this government has persisted by keeping things from the people. I think it’s the only way to conduct a government, I’ll be perfectly honest with you. I don’t think there’sa way to have a government and not lie to people. Because at the end of the day, there is not a government, you know what I mean? People say it’s not a system, we live in a nation, and there’s people … exactly! Thank you for making my point for me. It’s not about a government, it’s about people who rule other people. It’s about people that control other people for the interest of those people and a small conglomerate of individuals. Eventually it all breaks down to some economic oligarchy that runs New York City. Why can’t we imagine this being a microcosm for what goes on in Washington, or anywhere else? We fashioned ourselves after the Roman Empire, as if that was a good thing. That was an authoritarian regime that ruled through tyranny and murder. The PaxRomana was not that for everyone else.
So again, when I talk about 9-11 and I talk about these other things, I come from a perspective of doubt, but also one of compassion. For not just the people that died from that act but also for the people that died as a result of dragging 9-11 through everything. It became a catchphrase. There are conservative Republicans that should be ashamed with that, every single thing was about 9-11, 9-11, 9-11. And at the end of the day, you beginto lose touch with the actual reality. How a family was never paid their money. How firefighters remains were quickly dumped into garbage trucks with all sorts of other debris. And I’m not talking about particles of dust that were once people, I’m talking about parts of individuals. It just brings up so many questions. Like, what are you in such a rush to get rid of the evidence for? Are we going to forget that Bush didn’t want a 9-11 Commission? Are we going to forget that at first he tried to appoint Henry Kissinger to do that? At the end of the day, people are going to remember this. It’s not my fault that I have a good memory. Don’t call me a skeptic and a conspiracy theorist because I have a good memory.
I just remember all these things happening in conjunction with a massive attempt to blank out things in the media. When they finally hada quote-unquote picture of a plane hitting the Pentagon, and all the press was saying this was incontrovertible proof. And it looked like someone had super-imposed a duck bill over an old Polaroid photo, and I was like, ‘People believe that?’ So many other experts were saying, ‘This is Not the Pentagon, this is not the building,’ and then they pulled the picture. But they tried, and that’s the whole point. Yo, you go to jail for attempted murder, even if you fail. So where is the attempted perjury that these people are trying to get away with? Shouldn’t they be charged for that?
Those are basically my feelings on 9-11, and I think there alot of people within the 9-11 Truth Movement who see it that way. I’m sure that there are some people who think, automatically, that I’m naive because I don’t see it their way. That I don’t believe that George Bush is directly responsible for 9-11. There are people who come at me like that, and that’s fine, because I don’t need your permission to be who I am.
When you’re twice as old as me, you probably won’t have accomplished half as much. That’s fine. That’s not me bragging, that’s just me saying I plan to dedicate the rest of my life to what I’m doing. This isn’t some fly-by-night club that I’ve decided to throw together a band of revolutionaries to make music – this is my life. And I know people in the9-11 Truth Movement who are also dedicated to this for life, because they’ve lost members of their family. Their lives have been altered by it. And it isusually with those types of people, people that I can sit down and have a rational conversation, and agree to disagree on some things, that I am the closest with. And I’m more friendly about stuff when we have conversations within the 9-11 Truth Movement.
But I try to be open minded like that with all people I meet. I have a publicist whose entire family are anti-Castro Cubans. That’s avery interesting conversation. You know, I learn more about the struggle from them than by going to a meeting of ultra-Leftists telling me how big of a miracle Cuba is. And yes, absolutely, it’s interesting how it has lived under such deprived conditions, under embargo, and yet it’s still not the poorest country in Latin America and the Caribbean. That’s fucking amazing when you think about it. But at the same time, because I’m able to speak with those people, and because I am able to get another perspective, I say, you know, revolution isn’t perfect. Here’s the dark side of it, here’s the things that goon behind the scenes, here’s the unfortunate truth. And only by accepting those things can we possibly try to change them as a community and make the revolution stronger.
But there are people who do not want to accept that there is anything wrong with it, and they say, ‘Nah, it’s perfect.’ You are proving our enemies point more by doing that. I’m willing to sit down with people that I have an ideological disagreement with and have that conversation. I’m willing to sit down with people who have served in the Israeli army and have served in the occupied territory, and have differing views than me on the situation, and I want to understand them. I talked to a lot of people when I went to Ireland whose family were the only type of Republicans who I can see eye-to-eye with. Those that were saying, ‘Hey they came and they took my son, what the fuck was I supposed to do? Was I just supposed to lay down and accept that?’ On the other side there, were some British people I spoke to who said that, ‘Oh, that movement was infiltrated from the beginning.’ All right then, where’s the proof? Let’s have that discussion.
When I meet more logical people, rather than the people that demand my political allegiance immediately, then I get along with them better.There have been a couple of people who have had an issue with me because I won’t accept their theory immediately. But by and large I’ve met a very diverse group of people – not just within the the 9-11 Truth Movement, but within lots of these organizations – who are willing to say, ‘Hey, you know what, I don’t agree with lots of this stuff, and I’m not going to propagate things I can’t prove. I’m going to speak about my personal experience and how I was lied to. How they couldn’t find my family, and how it turns out they put them in a goddamn dumpster. I’m going to talk about my uncle, how he was down there digging bodies out, and now he has lung cancer. He doesn’t smoke, nothing, and now he has lung cancer. And you said it was cool to breathe down there. I didn’t see you down there. You took your face mask off for the press photos, but then you put it back on.’ There’s a lot of unanswered questions about stuff like that.
I think only after this country collapses are we going tofind out the truth. And still even after we find out the truth, there are still going to be people who will try to justify the government’s actions. And then you should just be recognized for the heartless, cold, fascist piece of shit that you are.
Let’s focus on New York City for a moment. Utilizing gentrification as a form of economic development has always been a trend, but it seems to have accelerated since the mid to late nineties. Up in Harlem right now there is the extension of the accelerated gentrification movement. Many will say stuff like, this is just a fact of life in NYC, but I wonder how people can work together to get some sort of equitable community going on and strike a balance between those coming in and those already living there?
Harlem, in general, is in a fucked up predicament right now, because the people who are supposed to represent it, don’t. There are people who are supposed to represent us in Congress, and they don’t, they represent themselves in Congress. And that’s fine and dandy, but then don’t lie to the public. Don’t act like you are doing some sort of public service for us by stealing money and by accepting money from all these donors who are obviously individuals who are working for the complete gentrification of Harlem. I think itwas so interesting to see Charles Rangle have his name plastered all over next to Obama’s. When I looked at that I was like, ‘You’re really trying to attach yourself to this man because if you ran on your own merit, you’d lose.’
As for Columbia University, here is an institution that claims to be about higher learning, and then you have the president of it who is quite aware of what’s going on in West Harlem, but doesn’t care. How much attention to detail of humanity are we observing, so at that point you realize that it’s not just education that’s important? You can be an educated person who is a cruel heartless bastard. Education doesn’t imply being more righteous, being more human, being better, coming up with better solutions for the public. Many times it elicits the thought of coming up with better solutions for you, and how you can take advantage of people.
You know, they say all the time, Those who can’t do, teach. That’s the saying. But you know what, those who can’t teach, chair a department, and those who chair a department are the president of the university. That dude, he knows how I feel about him, and there’s nothing he can do because I own my apartment, in the co-op I live at in Harlem. So you can kiss my ass, homie.
Are you speaking about Rangle or the cat at Columbia University?
Bollinger, the president of Columbia. Rangle has his own issues to deal with and I think he’s going to find himself in more hot water real soon. But that’s not going to solve the problem, by just getting rid of him, because after him, then who? Who’s going to come in and reverse that decision? They are going to find anything they can use on that guy. They are going to do whatever they possibly can to ruin that guy’s chance of ever achieving anything. I think it’s a shame. I think we should change the city. I think it would be interesting to see a Congressman come in and say, ‘You know what, no, fuck you, I don’t care what you say. You’re not helping the residents of this community. You’re gentrifying everything, you’re creating unaffordable housing. And there’s no effort to help our people find the civilization that we’ve lost.’
And as for Bollinger, him and his administration were the ones that created the Manhattanville community group and Harlem Renaissance. That has nothing to do with Manhattanville. They were just a bunch of niggas who decided to call themselves Manhattanville Community Group. A bunch of heartless devils, that were like, ‘Ok, here we go. Let’s act like we’re a part of this thing.’ And they go and hire David Dinkins. You’re going to put David Dinkinson the hook of your district in order to make it less offensive to the black community? Really? That’s how I feel about gentrification in New York.
We didn’t even get into gentrification in Brooklyn or Queensor the Bronx, just Harlem, so imagine how it plays out with other city officials all over the city. It’s funny because Hugo Chavez recently won a referendum so people can vote for him for a third term. We didn’t even get that courtesy from Bloomberg. He didn’t bring a referendum up to the people.
Word. I have heard a growth and progression in your music and words over these past number of years. I’m curious about what you are optimistic and hopeful about at this particular moment in the world and in Hip-Hop?
Honestly, in terms of Hip-Hop, it’s sad but I really don’t expect too much from a lot of people anymore. I’ve learned not to expect too much. Because as soon as I see someone who has a good idea or has some interesting work, they go and immediately think that they will get some money from some corporation, and that’s it. The validity they had with the people is gone, and it’s a shame, I wish it wasn’t like that. I wish people thought about how much longevity they would have if maybe they took a different outlook on stuff like that. But they don’t, it’s not their perspective.
I hope that there are those in the realm of Hip-Hop who actually proceed to make something of themselves, and say, ‘You know what, I can take this art really far.’ But the sad part is, most people don’t give a fuck about taking their art nowhere. This isn’t about art for them. They know nothing about art. They just know about using the same marketing strategy that everyone’s been using, ‘I’m a hustler. I’m a killer.’ Not to say that people haven’t killed or hustled. But I think now the Hip-Hop game is understanding that the street credibility doesn’t sell records anymore. No one cares if you’re a murderer. You did time, congratulations. You know, your rhymes better be really good, or your gonna have to go back on the breadline, homie. People don’t care about you being a fucking killer or a murderer. It’ll get you some clicks onto your website. If you post your jail record, it might get you something on Worldstar.
It’s like the public has an opportunity for the first time in a long time to say, ‘You know what, I know this is a lot of tongue in cheek stuff. I’ve seen this film before, show me something new.’ That’s the reason Hollywood is suffering, they got the same damn formula all the time. And you should suffer if you’re going to be like that, fuck you. That’s just what it is. I mean I think there are a group of promising individuals that I’ve had the pleasure of working with over the years that are doing stuff. I’m not just going to say that people who are promising are people that I’ve worked with.
I just hope that the independents that are in all of these regions –Midwest, the South, the West coast, the Northwest, the Southwest, the East coast, Canada, Latin America – and anyone who is reading this in Africa in Europe or Asia, I hope you realize the strength and potential that you have as an independent. And that you don’t sell yourself short, because it’s not a question of selling yourself short; it’s a question of selling yourself, period.
So, to touch on this again: There’s so much going on in the world right now and a lot of work that needs to be done. Is there anything that you see that has got you enthusiastic about, and has you saying, ‘Yo that’s dope. I’d like to see where that’s going.’ What’s popping up on the radar for you?
I think that over the years, I’ve seen more and more peoplequestioning stuff and who are coming into their own revolutionary logic. Ithink that’s a good first step, I’d like to see an expansion of that. But those parameters aren’t going to be set by me, they are going to be set by people who choose to question and rebel against the status quo. Or they may say, ‘Hey, it’s too much of a bother,’ and say fuck it. But there are more people out there willing to take risks for not just themselves, but for everybody, for a collective.
I’ve been really impressed by a lot of people. I hope that continues. I hope that more people realize how much we are connected and how much our struggles are connected, that we can learn from other people’s revolutions and other people’s failures and victories. That’s why I have such a great amount of respect for all revolutions that have existed. That’s why I have a great sadness towards all genocides, all holocausts. Because I want to understand each and every one in their own fashion, and how they all came to be. And what their impacts have been on our society beyond a TV show or a movie.
And I feel appreciated for my music. I have a very strong support base of people who are tired of hearing the same shit. And I’mma keep giving it to them. There’s the documentary I got coming called Urban Warfare about my travels all over the world. I’ve got “The Middle Passage” coming. I’ve got a couple of artists that I’m helping put some small releases out. Showcase some talent. And I’ve got a soundtrack for the movie I’m working on, real shit. Ha ha!
- Interview contributed by Propaganda Anonymous
Jay-Izzle wrote:
WOW! great interview. i see you HHL … gettin a technique interview!
Posted on 26-May-09 at 10:00 am | Permalink
James Paden wrote:
Anyway, the local people lived pretty much in fear from the tooth fairy. A massively-hairy creature, standing over seventeen tall, with gnarly teeth and severe halitosis, she was quite the monster. Eventually, through the loss of small children, the people determined the tooth fairy was attracted to freshly-removed teeth. So, in an effort to hide the teeth, children would place them under the pillow to mask the scent.
Posted on 26-May-09 at 11:00 am | Permalink
303 b-boy wrote:
knowledge. technique is the fucking man.
Posted on 26-May-09 at 11:11 am | Permalink
brokemc wrote:
nice work.
Posted on 26-May-09 at 5:14 pm | Permalink
East wrote:
“But more to the point, I think that revolution is a sacrifice and responsibility.”
Sounds like this cat’s revolution is gonna suck.
“That’s why I have such a great amount of respect for all revolutions that have existed. That’s why I have a great sadness towards all genocides, all holocausts.”
‘Tech makes good music, but he’s confused as fuck. What happens when genocide and revolution become indistinguishable? I have no respect for all the revolutions that have existed, because they all fucking failed (in more ways than one; believe that).
I could quote more but I really don’t give a fuck. Socialists are fucking lame. I dig his music though.
Posted on 26-May-09 at 8:06 pm | Permalink
East wrote:
^Too many ‘fucks’.
Posted on 26-May-09 at 8:08 pm | Permalink
Propaganda Anonymous wrote:
PEACE Everyone, thanks for taking the time to read this interview.
Tech broke down his thoughts in a very clear and concise way, I hardly needed to shape up his words at all.
There were no “Uhh” no “You know what I mean”
etc.
There are not many people, in general, who speak like this when speaking about shit.
For that I give the cat some props.
As far as his political thoughts go, though some might consider Socialism, or Socialists to be lame. There are many who see it the other way. Like nearly every Social and Economic philosophy.
What I find interesting about Tech’s approach to revolution and what it means to be a revolutionary is the open-mindedness involved in actually listening to people, and not writing them off with a knee-jerk reaction just because what their saying doesn’t automatically fit into one’s idea “Revolution”
There are many people who do not do this, so it’s important to make note of that.
Posted on 27-May-09 at 3:19 pm | Permalink
Father Time wrote:
wow.. that’s a lot.. Tech is the shit. I like the section over 9-11. What the fuck ever happened with that, we just took one and moved on to daddy’s old war? Bullshit!
Posted on 27-May-09 at 5:17 pm | Permalink
East wrote:
Oh! You got me! I’m so knee-jerkin’ it! Sorry if I’ve become disgruntled with the impotence of Socialism in the time I’ve been a pro-revolutionary. My previous comment may have been knee-jerkish, but I couldn’t be any less knee-jerkish than tech’s political ideology and morality. I mean, c’mon, the guy’s a conspiracy theorist. How is 9/11 even relevant to a pro-revolutionary discourse?
So what if he was ‘clear and concise’ with his words? You can be as elementary, sincere and simplistic in your oration and writing and still say nothing worth hearing; just as you could be as complex, insincere and jargony as possible, and still say nothing. Although, I will concede to the fact that simple prose is preferable to academic babbling.
To your statement about Socialism: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argumentum_ad_populum–“The greatest enemy of communism is socialism”. Socialism can never rise above the level of reformation. Socialists have executed thousands of anarchists and free communists. This beef goes back, and I don’t see how it could ever be squashed. Ya feel me? Not to get too gangsta on you or anything. Most beef pales in comparison to the torture and death Socialists have subjected millions to, including people such as myself, i.e. anti-authoritarians. I thought I would point that out. Not to say anarchists are innocent little angels. This isn’t a matter of good vs bad or black and white.
Liberal inclusiveness is just as lame as Socialism. I’ll write off Socialism and Socialists as much as I want. They write me, and others, off all the time.
Tech makes good music though, no doubt. I’ll definitely check out his next album.
Posted on 27-May-09 at 5:25 pm | Permalink
East wrote:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argumentum_ad_populum
Posted on 27-May-09 at 5:42 pm | Permalink
Propaganda Anonymous wrote:
East, no offense, but whatever homie.
I’m not interested in doing this dance.
You are a smart guy. That’s good.
Whatever philosophical ideology you proscribe to
will be needed in coming years.
I’ll say it like this, chances are You don’t really know all about Socialism, You don’t really know all about Liberalism, You don’t really know all about Capitalism.
Nor do I nor does Immortal Technique.
Not many people do. That’s why people speak to one another, and then go out in the real world and test their theories.
Negating something from the jump does not show intelligence and wisdom, it just shows you got an opinion.
So, NO, I was attempting to “Get You” to me that’s Lame.
Internet flame battles are dumb as far as I’m concerned.
This interview is just up to provide information, make your own decision on it.
Posted on 27-May-09 at 6:27 pm | Permalink
Propaganda Anonymous wrote:
Correction
“So, NO, I was NOT attempting to “Get You,” to me, that’s lame
Posted on 27-May-09 at 6:28 pm | Permalink
Propaganda Anonymous wrote:
My personal view point on ideological philosophies for change prolly coincide with very non-authoritarian ideas.
The idea a dictator, in any form, whether it is a king, politician, or proletariat to me seems counter productive.
What I have noticed about Immortal Technique’s own political analysis is that he does not seem to proscribe to a hard-line Socialist perspective, hence he will listen to others form opposing sides and communicate with them.
To me, this is putting the Human interaction before the Idea.
People kill people all the time because of an Idea, and they forget about the Human.
I don’t care what title that approach has, but it seems to me to be one of the best approaches.
Thanks for reading the interview though.
And I look forward to buildin more.
Posted on 27-May-09 at 6:36 pm | Permalink
East wrote:
Of course I don’t know all about Socialism. That’s an impossibility. Humans can only see what their subjectivity allows them to. Just as if I were to stand on a street corner, I wouldn’t be able to see the whole city. Nothing is really ‘knowable’. But let’s not play the “everyone is entitled to their opinion” game. That game is boring. Some things have to be destroyed in order to make way for relevance (not ‘progress’; relevance). Socialism had it’s time in the sun, and it succeeded in doing what it set out to do: making an alternative form of capitalism and industrialism.
Anyways…I’ll shut up now. I have stuff to do. Remember, ‘when the devil wants to dance with you, you better say never’.
Posted on 27-May-09 at 7:04 pm | Permalink
Propaganda Anonymous wrote:
Haha, no doubt.
I hear what you’re saying.
I didn’t say that everyone is entitled to their own opinion though.
Opinions are like assholes, everyone’s got one.
Still though, I usually enjoy listening to intelligent people speak and write.
I’m curious, if you see Socialism as an out-dated form of relevance, what system of thought and action is now most needed.
(This is not a barb. I am genuinely curious in order to build on something interesting)
PEACE
Prop
Posted on 28-May-09 at 3:43 am | Permalink
Menace wrote:
East , do you know that we anarchists are SOCIALISTS no ?? do you know that anarchists like Bakunin or Proudhon were called in their age Libertarian Socialists ?? and did you know that the term socialism existed way before Karl Marx ?? it’s a difference between Marx’s socialism ( China , Cuba )and Bakunin’s socialism ( Anarchist Catalonia , The Free Territory Of Ukraine ) so don’t generalize so much the term “socialism” if you are an anarchist you should know that as for Tech he’s a moderate Marxist whit social democratic tendencies but he’s NEEDED in hip hop his MUSIC is needed in hip hop we need more people like him and as for the genocides done by socialists ( Marxists ) well yes they did but capitalists have a much dirtier past then socialists
Posted on 28-May-09 at 9:48 am | Permalink
East wrote:
Yeah, yeah, I’ve heard it all before from the platformists and syndicalists. I dropped orthodox anarchism awhile back. I’m not going to argue with you, cuz I’ve have had this argument too many times. I’m an anarchist-communist but I’m not a leftist or a socialist. If you can’t see how that works then I would suggest you start reading more *up to date* anarchist and communist literature. Like:
Alfredo M. Bonanno
Fredy Perlman
Monsieur Dupont/Frere Dupont
Bob Black
Gilles Dauve
Jacques Camatte
Wolfi Landsteicher (aka, Feral Faun)
The Invisible Committee/Tiqqun
Killing King Abacus
Etc, etc.
That’s just a taste though; I’ll leave it to you to develop your own pro-revolutionary stance beyond leftism and all that other shit.
In response to Prop: I don’t prescribe any ’system’. That presupposes that existence has to be ordered and systematized; that shit don’t jive with me. What is most needed right now is the death of social order–the overthrow of capitalism and sovereignty. ‘The dissolution of the modern world’, to use the words of another. How that will come about really isn’t up to me or you. Almost every act of (anti-authoritarian) insurrection and revolt that has occurred in the 21st century has been catalyzed by forces outside of pro-revolutionary consciousness. If that doesn’t say something then I don’t what will be able to get through the thick heads of all the would-be revolutionaries out there.
A revolt against existence, against the totality of that which controls us; that’s what is most needed. I have no idea how that will come about.
Posted on 28-May-09 at 2:10 pm | Permalink
Propaganda Anonymous wrote:
Respect East.
Thanks for getting open on this.
Can you please provide a specific instance of what you spoke in this sentence
“Almost every act of (anti-authoritarian) insurrection and revolt that has occurred in the 21st Century has been catalyzed by forces outside of pro-revolutionary consciousness”
Being that we just started the 21st Century how could anything definitive about it be said?
or was that just a typo and you were referring to the 20th Century?
And if so, can you please provide an example of your statement.
I have some ideas in response to that statement, but I don’t know (yet) what exactly you are trying to say with it.
“As far as a revolt against resistance and the totality of that which controls us” is concerned
To me, that seems like a pretty tall order.
The mere statement is daunting, and it is no wonder why it seems like there is no idea of how to change it.
It sounds nearly Gnostic to me. In that, it seems to say that this whole existence is off kilter, completely and we would need extremely drastic measures to change shit.
In interpret the statement as something which precludes non-action, and vicious circles of theorizing and talking about only what is wrong with things.
To quote Van Jones, “Martin Luther King Jr. didn’t get famous with a speech called ‘I Have A Complaint.’ At some point we have to say what we are for.”
What do you all think about campaigns for More Green Jobs (as in Sustainable South Bronx’s B.E.S.T. programs) and Less Prisons?
And how can we move towards something like that?
PEACE
Posted on 28-May-09 at 4:20 pm | Permalink
Propaganda Anonymous wrote:
correction
“I interpret the statement…….
Posted on 28-May-09 at 4:22 pm | Permalink
East wrote:
Examples:
* http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2008_Greek_riots
* http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2005_civil_unrest_in_France
* (this one is a whole ‘zine) http://issuu.com/badapplesdistro/docs/utemer?mode=embed&layout=http%3A%2F%2Fskin.issuu.com%2Fv%2Fdark%2Flayout.xml
* http://anarchistnews.org/?q=node/5963
That zine provides a lot of info. The insurrections in France and Greece were the first two examples that were on the top of my head. Anti-authoritarian revolt takes many forms and there should be no distinction between the small acts of revolt (e.g. vandalizing property) and the large ones (e.g. insurrection). But, again, most of the insurrections that have occurred were catalyzed by non-revolutionary forces. Pro-revolutionary consciousness spurred them on and inflamed them in some cases (like in Greece and Oakland), but they were not triggered by the efforts of pro-revolutionaries. You have to accept that in most cases, pro-revolutionaries are irrelevant to revolution. You’re nothing more than just another body, albeit an oppositional body, to some extents. As a side note, there’s a separation between pro-revolutionaries (those who are consciously opposed to the social order) and those who are not (‘the masses’–as crude as that moniker is). Revolutionary politics is when pro-revolutionaries attempt to collect and apportion the alienated power of ‘the masses’ (representation, political capital), just as any other politician does, thereby affirming and emphasizing that separation. I’m opposed to that.
It’s good to explore that separation. In both practice and theory (obviously).
Revolution is a tall order. That’s probably why every effort to bring about revolutionary social change so far has failed. I also see a bit of dualism in your comment. Are theory and practice so far apart? Can one live and thrive without the other? I reject any dualist separation between theory and practice; it’s not ‘healthy’ to keep the separation going in your own mind. I’m also not a fan of ‘actionism’ and urgency–two traits most visible in activism. I don’t want to save the world, I want to destroy it. I will do things my way and on my own time and energy.
As for the ‘campaigns’ you referenced–and I don’t mean to sound too rude–I don’t care about them. I have no interest in activist projects. Just looking at the name of the first one, “More Green Jobs”, I know that I would be opposed to something like that. What the hell is a ‘green job’? Why would you want to send more people to work? Wouldn’t you want to defeat work, i.e. capitalist productivity, wage-labor, systemic alienation, etc etc? Obviously I recognize the necessity of working, as the current conditions of human existence demand that we sell ourselves so we can survive. But really? ‘Green jobs’? That shit is wack. And ‘less prisons’?!? How about NO prisons! That sounds better to me.
I appreciate the fact that you haven’t resorted to knee-jerk reactions to my comments. You’re doing a better job of conversing than most anarchists.
Posted on 28-May-09 at 5:32 pm | Permalink
Propaganda Anonymous wrote:
Cool.
Those are good sources to delve into more.
And I see what you are saying with surges of uprising not needing to be directly related to a pro-revolutionary stance.
Perhaps, humanity’s deeper urges are more pro-revolutionary than most others realize.
In reference to the idea about “Green Jobs vs. Prisons” I am referring to a specific campaign that is happening in the South Bronx.
Where there isn’t really too many people enacting out the total war against the status quo, so to speak. And there is an inordinate amount of people going to jail because of the way the criminal justice system is run.
So Sustainable South Bronx is looking to get a recycling center put up, instead of a prison.
I’d also like to look at the statement of “work” being a problem. I think it needs further specification. I agree to an extent that “Work” is a problem. In that most ‘work’ within our society is basically wage-slavery.
However, when one looks at Work in the way of doing something that one feels called to do, deep down, and one gets some sort of feeling of balance with the idea of the Earth, then that work is not work, per se, but something that humans have done ever since we’ve existed.
It is a communion.
Perhaps, I fell into a dualistic form of dialogue when I criticized too much theorizing.
And Yes, I agree, theory and action work together.
I urge you not to fall into the same trap of dualism by just saying that work is the problem.
All of this stuff is on a spectrum and scale, and not an either/or type thing. Which I’m sure you know, but I guess we all need more practice in wording it that way.
So in terms of Hunts Point, the way that surrounding circumstances seem to be configured, where state and corporate institutitons tend to have more clout than individual resources, getting a Recycling Center instead of a Prison put up is major work, and one that is very beneficial to the people living there.
As far as the idea of Abolishing All Prisons, man I am def with you there.
But again, I see it as a matter of scale, and getting the idea out there.
Because so many think of prisons as a fact of life.
So just by talking about it raises consciousness and gets people thinking differently.
Back the Green Jobs thing. See part of the problem, as I see it, is most of the developed worlds utter alienation from “Nature”
Most of us feel a deep disconnection we can hardly express.
At least something like “Green Jobs” gets people thinking about out Inter-dependence with “Nature”
SO while I agree with most of your statements, I don’t see you bringing forth many solutions.
And speaking about destroying things are necesaary at times, but I honestly think that is something that has been done many times over.
(Perhaps we can still benefit from more de-construction)
However, I think it is the time for Re-construction. For thinking about ways to rebuilding the world. Our at least Listening to the world, and co-building it.
And all this involves working with what is already here and in physical form, and not getting into too many abstractions, etc.
And as far as me not getting too knee-jerk, I say thank you, and of course.
Isn’t that also part of the problem?
I much rather have a conversation that an argument sloppily disguised as a debate.
PEACE Homie
Posted on 29-May-09 at 2:36 pm | Permalink
East wrote:
When I say ‘work’, I mean economic labor; productivity that is alienated from the worker. The exertion of energy in order to complete some sort of task that is productive for the person doing it isn’t what I mean. Work: any form of labor done in service of capital’s accumulation; think of everything that surrounds you on a daily basis as the congealed and curdled labor power of billions of people, and it is constantly building on itself, like a machine that is perpetually constructing itself. That is the accumulation. You cannot escape it or reform it, only destroy it in an act of transcendence (and I don’t mean in that in some dumbass theological way). The writings of the Situationists are a good source of anti-work ideas but they’re not the end all be all. This essay pretty much explains work abolition to a key:
The Abolition of Work: http://deoxy.org/endwork.htm
“I urge you not to fall into the same trap of dualism by just saying that work is the problem.”
Opposition to work isn’t a form of dualism. There’s a clear distinction between self-productivity (or ’self-activity’, if you prefer that) and alienated labor. By dualism I meant the form of dualism similar to the notion of a split between ‘body’ and ‘mind’; that somehow, those two things are separate or can be separate. Theory and praxis are inseparable. There’s no such thing as too much theory or too much practice if they’re in tune with each other. As long as any form of economy and it’s accompanying institutions exist, alienated labor will exist. Human productivity should not be in service to something outside of their own autonomy. Even leftist/socialist notions of maintaining alienated labor in service to the ‘Common Good’ is crap. If you’re not enjoying it and/or seeing it’s results benefit you in a direct and personal way, then it isn’t self-productive.
There’s clearly not some form of ’scale’ or ’spectrum’ that one can place both alienated activity (work is just one form; perhaps the predominant form) and self-activity (self-determined and autonomous activity) on. To me, this is a matter of either/or. I’m not going to settle for transitional revolution or other pseudo-’withering state’ ideas.
Your statement about consciousness shares a distinct Marxist genealogy. I’m not calling you a Marxist though. The idea of spreading pro-revolutionary consciousness (‘class consciousness’) is something that is very prevalent among radical milieus of all sorts, and I don’t find it agreeable. It implies that those who hold pro-revolutionary consciousness are specialized conduits of revolutionary change and that only through their efforts can the dispossessed transform into an agent of revolution (a subject that has the ability to destroy/overthrow the social order). That only affirms the separation that I mentioned previously. It’s a very ambiguous and vague idea that is open to manipulation and abuse (e.g. vanguardism, activism, etc).
Define solution. Almost every time I hear an activist and/or leftist say that, it implies some form of program and/or institutional reformation. What do you want me to suggest as a solution to our problem (and I’m sure the things we recognize as problems are very different from each other)? Most of the ’solutions’ I hear people ranting about aren’t even solutions at all. I’m not going to step onto a stage in front of the entire human species and say, “ok, this is what we have to do…”. This isn’t a matter of going down a laundry list of political issues and solving them one by one; this is a matter of reclaiming my means of existence. Revolution has to encompass the entirety, the totality, of social relations, because that’s what we’re opposing, specific forms of social relations. I suppose it will come down to forming new relations between people that are completely opposed to our current social relations. A form of nihilism, if you will.
“However, I think it is the time for Re-construction.”
Can’t plot the crop until you’ve burned the field. Can’t live in a desired state of existence until you’ve done away with the one that you oppose. You’re creating a dichotomy between creation and destruction; a false dichotomy. “Building the new world in the shell of the old” is a leftist myth. I don’t want to take the reigns of the current institutions and use them to build my world; I want to do away with institutions all together.
On many things, we’re just going to have to agree to disagree for now. I’m a very different breed of pro-revolutionary than you are. This isn’t to say we’re enemies, but it is to say that in some cases, we’re opposed to each other. I think we’ve carried this conversation as far as it can go for now. Haha…I’m already spending too much time on the internet; I gotta do laundry and pick up some coffee from Dunkin Donuts.
I’ll catch you later, dude. Peace.
Posted on 29-May-09 at 4:32 pm | Permalink
East wrote:
Oh shit! I just clicked on the link in your username. You got an EP and everything, huh? Congrats, dude! I’ll give it a listen, check it out. Good conversatin’ with you. Maybe we can have more discussions on this board in the future. I’m getting sick of arguing with the same fools.
Good luck with ya tunes, man.
Posted on 29-May-09 at 5:08 pm | Permalink
Propaganda Anonymous wrote:
PEACE East
Yep, that one’s free.
Good buildin.
There’s lots to be done, and convos like these are very important.
Jeah!
Posted on 29-May-09 at 11:47 pm | Permalink
Menace wrote:
East DO YOU understand that you ARE A LEFTIST ?? anarchist communists are leftists the only anarchists that are called right wing anarchists are anarcho-capitalists anarcho-communists/syndicalists/platformists are all LEFTIST ideologies when you oppose capitalist private property and give the means of production to the working class THEN YOU are inherently a LEFTIST read some Peter Kropotkin if you are anarcho-communist
Posted on 11-Jun-09 at 8:12 pm | Permalink
James wrote:
Proper interview, what book is he reading? looks ill
Posted on 27-Sep-09 at 9:20 am | Permalink
Dylan wrote:
I thought the interview was fairly in depth, I should expect nothing less from tech. I’ve read a few of his interviews and listened to all of his verses and he seems much less solidified in his perspectives when talking to a specific individual rather that his followers. I can understand this though, he has to be blunt and general to make his lyrics powerful and persuasive. I found the conversation between East and Prop much more interesting and stimulating. I admire the ability of both of them to share knowledge instead of proving knowledge and discrediting the others’ statements. Respect to both for keepin a cool head …the most informative collection of article comments I’ve ever seen.
Posted on 14-Oct-09 at 2:53 am | Permalink
TheGhost wrote:
i agree dylan, i found the discussion to be very interesting.. ill just drop a few cents into that discussion without trying to get too preachy.. one of the key elements to finding truth is to take in both sides, this can pretty much be agreed upon by everyone, the problem is that people will acknowledge the other side but still choose to fight in what they perceive to be a struggle when in fact there is no real struggle to prove which side is right, its really very selfish.. i like to take a taoist perspective when thinking about economics and politics, atleast in the sense that i seek balance within those subjects.. when i think about the political spectrum, i dont see a line with points on it like i was taught to believe in college, i see a circle where at some point two completely opposing ideologies become the same ideology.. i mean think about fascism vs communism, both can be considered opposite ends of the political spectrum according to the average economics professor, but the reality of it is that the two ideologies are almost identical.. one in which the corporation takes control of the state, and the other the state taking control of the corporation, either way you have totalitarianism regardless of whos making the rules, and everyone who isnt in a position of power is still going to suffer, so in reality how do the ideologies differ from one another? you have to take both sides of the argument, take the good from both sides, disregard the bullshit from both sides, and you get an answer to something that actually makes sense.. i did the same thing regarding the eternal argument of science vs religion, each side tries to prove themselves in one way or another and yet both sides have yet to come to a clear concise answer to the big question.. so i researched every living religion in the world seeking some sort of truth, and then i read alot of science and theory seeking the same, and realized that both sides had it right to a point, then added a bunch of bullshit to cover for their own shortcomings.. therefore i subscribe to the philosophy of taoism with the theory of quantum physics.. im taking two ideologies from opposite sides of the argument and smashing them together to form one ideology.. this is just my theory on the subject though, and i know its probably not the best, but its the best i can think of lol
Posted on 26-Oct-09 at 8:52 am | Permalink
TheGhost wrote:
oh shit i guess i did get kinda preachy lol
Posted on 26-Oct-09 at 8:53 am | Permalink